ARTICLES

Man Behind the 'Buddy Christ'

Who Is the Real Anti-Disney?

By James McCoy

In April last year, Miramax, a film distributor owned by Disney, dropped the film Dogma. The day after, the N.Y.-based Catholic League for Civil and Religious Rights, which had labeled the film virulently anti-Catholic, claimed a victory. I remember thinking, the good guys won one for a change.

But as I researched a story on the call to boycott Disney for articles in the Los Angeles Mission, I remained unconvinced that the Catholic League had caused Miramax to drop Dogma. I now know I was wrong: Kevin Smith, the film's writer and director, says that that was the case.

My articles came to the attention of Dan Lungren, the Catholic Radio talk show host. Listeners had been calling in, debating whether or not to boycott Disney. Lungren interviewed me on the air in May. I reiterated what I had written but added that I remained curious about Kevin Smith's motivations. I suspected that he was a lapsed Catholic, and I wondered why he would make such a movie. I said that I had tried to get a hold of him, as well as spokespersons at Miramax and Disney, but that nobody had returned my calls.

I forgot about Dogma until the movie was released last November. My editor suggested I see it and write an analysis. I hesitated: I found was afraid to see the movie. Shocking cinematic images have seared my imagination in the past -- which is why I go to the movies only two or three times a year. I didn't want my mind to be the scorched earth left by someone else's blasphemy.

But in January, while on retreat at Holy Resurrection Byzantine Catholic Monastery in Newberry Springs, I spoke with a man who had stopped there on his way to the mountains in Nevada. Somehow Dogma came up, and this man, who'd seen it twice, said he thought Kevin Smith was trying to preach the faith! He said Smith had "translated" some basic tenets of Catholicism into terms even Americans could understand. And that's why the movie was called Dogma!

This piqued my interest. I conducted an internet search for more information on Kevin Smith, and discovered the following information: "Age: 29... Wife: Jennifer Schwalbach ... married on April 25, 1999 by a Catholic monk at Skywalker Ranch in California." (Skywalker Ranch, in Marin County, is the production facility of George Lucas, creator of the Star Wars movies.) As a circling hawk dives on a bunny, I dove into the story.

I put in a call to the Marin County clerk's office. The clerk there was helpful, and in a few days I received a certified copy of Kevin Smith's marriage certificate. Under "Signature Of Person Solemnizing Marriage," I read "Robert M. Dittler, OSB." Under "Religious Denomination of Clergy," I read "Catholic." Under "Official Title," I read "Bishop"!

A check of the Kenedy Official Catholic Directory indicated that Robert M. Dittler was not a Roman Catholic bishop. I found Bishop Dittler's phone number through another web search, and faxed him a copy of the marriage certificate with a note stating that I was a reporter for News Notes. I asked him to explain why he was not listed in the Catholic Directory. Although I included my phone number in the fax, I didn't hear from him.

About a week later, however, Stephanie Hopping, who fields calls for News Notes, received a phone call from Kevin Smith saying that he would be happy to explain the confusion. I couldn't believe it. One drawback to samizdat Catholic journalism is that all too often people feel free to ignore one's phone calls. And here was the film-maker himself calling me.

I realized now that I had to see the movie. There was no way I was going to speak to Smith on the phone and not ask him questions about his movie. That, after all, is more important to most readers than in what Church he got married. So I went to see Dogma in the Gaslamp District.

I won't make any apologies for the movie. Smith is quite able to defend his movie on his own, as you'll see.

(I sent a transcript of my interview to Bill Donahue of the Catholic League for replies to the various charges Smith makes, but at press time Donahue had not contacted me.)

Q. I'm not out to crucify you.

A. If you were, you're a little too late; I've been crucified by everybody.

Q. Why do you say that?

A. Because for the last year and change the Catholic League took me to task without having seen the film. Interestingly, once the film was seen, they shut up about it. I mean, like once the movie got into the mainstream, once got into the theaters, suddenly that all died down. Which says to me one thing: I was basically a way for them to increase their profile for a whole year. You know, it's like I'm still waiting for a dozen roses from Bill Donahue and the Catholic League with a card with a note saying, "Thanks For a Great Year!"... Because without me the public probably wouldn't know about them basically.

Q. Doesn't that work both ways?

A. No! because I didn't need them; I didn't want that kind of thing.... That's what kills me, people go, "hey, it's free publicity." Look, I'd much rather pay for publicity; I would much rather buy an ad on TV or in a newspaper than put up with a quarter of the shit I put up with this year. And at the end of the day, can you really say it helped us? Probably not. I mean, the movie did 30 million bucks which is pretty strong but not nearly as strong as [expected].

Q. Not as strong as Chasing Amy?

A.Yeah, but that did 12 million.

Q. But you did a movie that grossed more than $100 million.

A. Good Will Hunting: I was the exec producer for that one.

Q. Why didn't Dogma do as well as you hoped?

A. At the end of the day, it's about Catholicism. You know, it's a very compound, myopic subject that doesn't necessarily lend itself to a mainstream audience. Because of the cast ... it might have played larger if there had not been all this political stuff created, crafted by an organization. That's what they do: that's all the Catholic League does. And it's sickening. It's sickening because people turn around, Bill Donahue will turn around and point a finger at me, and say I'm the bad Catholic, a poor representation of Catholicism. When what he does is a poor representation of Christianity, which in my opinion is far more important than Catholicism.

Q. That sounds like --

A. -- Because contrary to popular belief, Christ wasn't a Catholic; Christ was the original Christian.

Q. What's the distinction?

A. Catholicism in the hands of a person like Bill Donahue and the Catholic League has turned into a political party, you know, it's sort of like Democrats and Republicans. They use it [Catholicism] as a weapon. If you look at the logo of the Catholic league, it's a sword -- it's a shield with a sword on it! I mean, what does that have to do with Christianity? Where did Christ say anything about swords except if you live by it you die by it? And Catholicism has just been co-opted by people like Bill Donahue and it's really torn asunder, torn to shreds. I think it's far from what it was originally supposed to be about.

Q. What's that?

A. The ideals and goals of Christianity in general: helping out our fellow man, doing unto others as you would have them do unto you, loving one another as you love yourself: All the things that Christ taught us.

But look, look at the manifestos of the Catholic League, look at the literature they put out ... there's nothing about Christ in there; nothing about loving one's neighbor. What do they do for the good of humanity? Nothing.... But show me one great thing they've done for Catholicism. Show me anything they've done for humanity.... I mean Bill Donahue, heaven help him, is a politician, of the most sickening variety because he's using his religion -- and my religion -- as his weapon and pedestal. And me, I just tried to make a movie that preached the Gospel of Christ, talks about religion, talks about the faith, talks about spirituality to an audience that doesn't necessarily hear it anymore nor give a shit about it.

Q. Was your goal to preach the faith?

A. Absolutely! Absolutely.

Q. Is that why you named it Dogma?

A. Because it's a double-edged sword ... dogma can be a good thing, and for the wrong people it's a bad thing; and that's what the movie points out very clearly: that in the wrong hands dogma is --

Q. -- so you're not against dogma in itself?

A. No, of course not! I'm a Catholic; if was against dogma, I wouldn't be able to maintain my Catholicism. I would just be an amorphous Christian, a Unitarian.

Q. By "maintain Catholicism," you mean, you're a practicing Catholic?

A. Absolutely: I go to church, every Sunday. I just got my daughter baptized in the Church about the time of the opening [of Dogma].

Q. I tried [to contact] Robert M. Dittler, OSB, who on your marriage license identified himself as "Catholic bishop," but I couldn't find him in the Kenedy Official Catholic Directory.

A. Absolutely. He's Dutch Catholic.

Q. Dutch Catholic, is that the same as Old Catholic?

A. Yeah.

Q. Is that the church that ordained Sinead O'Connor?

A. Ooh, I don't know about that.

Q. Is that where you had your daughter baptized, in the Dutch Catholic Church?

A. No, the Dutch Catholic organization is not one that we have in the area out where I live out in New Jersey. However, where I got married, I got married in San Francisco, up by where I was, working on a film on Skywalker Ranch. So those were the nearest priests we could find on such a short notice.

Q. I'd much rather talk about your movie than the Catholic League.

A. Me too, but unfortunately the last year the two subjects have been inseparable. But believe me I'd much rather leave that subject behind. It's been just a painful, unnecessary year, and one of those years where you really have to hold onto your faith in the face of Pharisees and Saducees like Bill Donahue and his organization. It's a sham. There the people that Christ pointed out: Look at the pious; look at the so-called pious, the people that hold themselves up, go to church and tithe, the "look at me" kind of Catholic.

But you know what? I wouldn't have a problem if he kept it to himself. But the dude went out of his way to attack me.... I've reached out to people; they don't reach out to people; all they do is slam them, attack them. That's not Christian behavior; hell, that's not Catholic behavior.

Q. When Bethany receives her mission from the angel Metatron she's generally clueless until he mentions how the angel Loki was "one day ... wiping out all the first-born of Egypt." That clicks with Bethany: "The Tenth Plague," she says. And Metatron, miffed, replies, "See ... mention something out of a Charlton Heston movie and they're suddenly theology scholars."

A. To me, most people who weren't raised in the Church or became Catholics in name only, like they were baptized but it pretty much ended there; or they were made to go to church as children and it ended there; all they know about the religion is what they see in movies. Or what they're told by other people.

Q. Did you have a theological adviser for Dogma?

A. No, not at all, because I was raised in it; I'm a believer in it; I did my time in Catholic school; I know my Bible inside and out; I was my own adviser.... I mean Dreamworks, all right, Dreamworks did the Moses movie, you know, The Prince of Egypt, they had a slew of advisers on that, you know, rabbis and priests, because they didn't want anyone to be offended by the movie.... To bring a priest on board ... what priest is going to be willing? I can give my own stamp of approval. I mean a priest ... couldn't condone a movie with bad language.

Q. There is some really bad language in the movie, but I didn't think the Thirteenth Apostle "reeks of radio shock jock Howard Stern," as the Catholic League news release put it.

A. Exactly.... I remember watching -- when we screened at the New York Film Festival, and they had a bunch of people outside protesting the movie. There were people on the news: "They tell me that this movie maintains says that Mary was a whore ... that the Apostles have sex but not with their wives." It's plain shit ...

Q. I was surprised because in the film -- even though the Thirteenth Apostle says about Mary's husband, "do you really think he'd have stayed married to her all those years if he wasn't getting laid?" --

A. -- Absolutely --

Q. He also says, "Mary gave birth to Christ without having known a man's touch -- that's true." Why did you maintain the dogma of the virgin birth?

A. Because it's in the Bible! You know, it's in Mark. Mark talks about Jesus' brothers; he talks about his sisters. And then some people will say, "well, that's just because they didn't have the word for 'cousin.'" But meanwhile, 10 chapters earlier they talk about Mary's cousin Elizabeth giving birth.... I mean they treat it so arbitrarily: "This part is okay; but this part we don't need." And then I get taken to task for saying something that's in the Bible! But why me? Why not St. Mark!

Look, I'm sorry I'm yelling; I can't believe this organization [the Catholic League]. They are the modern-day pharisees, exactly these are the people that Christ was talking about, the people to avoid....

Q. Back to the movie: Cardinal Glick, the promoter of the "Catholicism -- Wow!" campaign and unveiler of the "Buddy Christ," at one point says: "Mass attendance is at an all-time low in this country.... But if we can sell them some show -- let 'em know the Catholic Church has a little panache -- we can win them back. Even get some new ones...." I think you're on to something there: the Church's credibility drops when her own vital signs, such as Mass attendance, drop. Would you agree?

A. Absolutely, go ahead.

Q. The Catechism of the Catholic Church says, "What moves us to believe is not the fact that revealed truths appear as true and intelligible in the light of our natural reason: we believe because of the authority of God himself who reveals them, who can neither deceive nor be deceived." But the Catechism adds: "the miracles of Christ and the saints, prophecies, the Church's growth and holiness, and her fruitfulness and stability are most certain sings of divine Revelation, adapted to the intelligence of all; they are motives of credibility ..."

A. Exactly. You have to look hard to find a church like that. The problem is, one can speak of the Church ... as a whole, as a unit. But unfortunately it's not like that.... Because you have churches that kind of go out of their way -- not necessarily being Catholic -- to practice the old fire-and-brimstone method of Catholicism, which just doesn't bring them in.... People adhere to the letter of the Bible ... so regardless of whether or not the New Testament has ... most hard-core, old-time religion folks -- people who happen to believe that God is very angry and vengeful -- will use written passages to support that, passages from the Old Testament. Never really the words of Christ, always the words from the Old Testament. And that's the problem. I often find that completely hypocritical. They'll use passages from the Bible, and say, "well God says in the Old Testament"; but then completely ignore passages in the New Testament.... "Here's where it says it, right here in black and white." But meanwhile they won't embrace everything that's in black and white. But the thing about the Church is, I don't think that the Church is wrong, or broken. Some churches, some parishes are; but not Holy Mother Church itself. What you have to do as a Catholic is find a church which preaches what you believe, even in Catholicism.

Q. When Bethany is in church at Sunday Mass, you have a long, panning shot of parishioners, some are sleeping, some kids are fighting, one man is listening to a Walkman --

A. -- Everybody doing anything but. Not being present.

Q. Another character in the film says, "people don't go to church to feel spiritual anymore. They go and they're bored. But they go every week." Why then do they keep going?

A. Because people, I think, people want to go to church to believe....

Q. The Catechism says that dogmas are "truths contained in divine Revelation or having a necessary connection with them, in a form obliging the Christian people to an irrevocable adherence of faith.... Dogmas are lights along the path of faith; they illuminate it and make it secure."

A. Absolutely. I'd agree. That's what dogma is? Yes, absolutely I'd agree. But some people say that dogma is the Church, that God is the Church. But dogma, you always have to remember, is created by man. And people say, "Oh, it's the words of Jesus Christ!" It's people taking an interpretation of the words of Christ and putting it into a context that suits their purposes. But the Church is not about dogma. "If you've got dogma, if you've got the faith, it should lead the way" -- it should, I mean, Lord knows that should be its key role. But unfortunately some people corrupt it; I mean like: "This is the Church; this is why you're Catholic." No, that's not why we're Catholic. We're Catholic because we believe in God, that Jesus Christ is his Son, was born of the Virgin Mary, suffered and died for our sins and rose again on the third day.

Q. Do you believe in all those dogmas?

A. Absolutely.

Q. Yet by the end of the movie Bethany says that she has exchanged her beliefs for ideas....

A. Because my take on beliefs is that it always leads people to so much trouble.... If you look back through the history of the Church, many people have died for their beliefs or people who have killed for their beliefs. And the people who were martyred for their beliefs, hey, man, that's great, that's fine, that's okay.

But people who killed for their beliefs?... Christ didn't go, "kill one another in the name of God." As his children, we're given free will, we're given free will by God. You choose to adhere to God or you choose not to.... But Christians shooting people ... that's not our role. We're not supposed to go out and punish people who don't believe in what we believe. That's Bill Donahue and his so-called Catholic League....

But Christ told the parable of the sower who sows the seed: some falls on fertile ground, some falls on rocks, some bakes in the sun, some the birds eat. And that's what we're supposed to do, we're supposed to go out and sow the seed....

Q. Sterility and fertility are major themes of the movie. Bethany works in an abortion clinic. When Bethany at first refuses her mission to save the world, she blames God for her own sterility and misery, saying that her husband divorced her because she couldn't have a baby -- Metatron says, "So you lost the ability to make life. You're being offered the chance to play mother to the world by acting like one and protecting it -- saving it." That role reminded me of that of the Blessed Virgin Mary!

A. -- Absolutely. Ignoring everything else, and taking things ... out of context. I mean, that's the thing: they'll tell you things about the movie that are incendiary; and they're incendiary if you take them out of context. If you leave them in the context and tell people: yes, it's a movie about the truths of the faith, the importance of the faith and belief in God....

My goal was to make people think, to present both sides of the issue. It became very slanted of course towards my faith. I wouldn't say it was fair to the secular and religious [alike]: it was definitely more fair to the religious.... It's definitely a movie that's supposed to start discussion.... I watched people walk out of the theater and talk about it. I read people talk about it online.

Q. Before they kill them, the two renegade angels tell members of the board of directors of the Mooby Corporation, home of Mooby, the Golden Calf: "You are responsible for raising an icon that draws worship from the Lord" --

A. Absolutely.

Q. Was that a dig at Disney?

A. Absolutely.... I don't know any executives ... that are guilty of those trangressions. But it's Disney, it's Barney, it's Pokemon.

Q. Why did Disney-owned Miramax drop Dogma?

A. Because it was too much trouble at the end of the day. And the big problem with it too was that Miramax was run by Bob and Harvey Weinstein, a pair of Jews.... So of course, Bill Donahue leaped on that as well, and turned it into a hate issue against the Jews.... If you go to our website, which is www.viewaskew.com ... and click on the "hate mail", you'll see all of this hate-mail we've gotten.

Q. So Bill Donahue was right to claim Miramax dropped it because of a threatened Catholic League boycott?

A. He's half right. I mean, he would love to claim responsibility for that. At the end of the day, is he responsible? -- yes, you'd have to say, if there'd been no uproar about it, it would have been a Miramax film; it would have come out under of the aegis of Miramax.... But because he created this thing we had to come out through Lion's Gate instead. But I don't think Bill Donahue won because what Bill Donahue wanted was the movie to never come out.

Q. But surely you understand why he thought it was a scandal to the faith? The main protagonist, Bethany, is a Catholic who works in an abortion clinic....

A. ...Read your Bible, go back and look at how most of those saints or Apostles were fallen persons.... I mean, there's no greater story than redemption. In our faith, there's no greater story than redemption. I mean Saul, on the road to Damascus, is struck down by the voice of God saying: "Why, why are you persecuting Me?" Paul was persecuting Christians but turns around to becoming one of the greatest Christians who ever lived.

Q. If Bethany leaves her abortion clinic job and turns around and saves the world, aren't you saying that abortion is wrong?

A. No, as a Christian I don't judge.... That's God's job, not mine. All I'm saying is, there are sinners, so-called sinners, who are good people, good Christians, good Catholics.... I mean, there's a confessional at the back of the church. And one can still be a sinner and be spiritual and be Christian and be Catholic. I mean, you know: he without sin, cast that first stone....

But unfortunately, some people can't get past the ... vulgarity [in Dogma] ... that shows people as sinners -- maybe ultimately, devout as well. But we're all sinners, and we're all devout; but we're not all devout as we should be.

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